Episode 33. Deferred Enrollment MBA Programs

In this episode, Katie and Rebecca discuss deferred enrollment MBA programs with Christine Friedman.

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Transcript for Hidden Curricula Episode 33

Deferred Enrollment MBA Programs with Christine Friedman

 Rebecca:  Welcome to Hidden Curricula, a podcast exploring aspects of preparation for professional schools that may not be obvious or common knowledge. We will delve into topics of concern for undergraduates and discuss questions that relate to professional school applications. My name is Rebecca Curtin. 

Katie: And I'm Katie Wang.

Rebecca: We are two of four pre-professional advisors at Stanford University. Our group works with students who are interested in professional fields such as law, education, business, and medicine. 

Katie: This podcast is not meant to be advice, like we might give to our students, but rather to shed some light on how an advisor might approach various situations and level the playing field for all applicants.   

Rebecca: We are very excited today to welcome Christine Friedman to the podcast. Christine is the Deferred enrollment Director at Stanford University Graduate School of Business, or GSB as it's commonly known on our campus. Welcome, Christine. 

Christine: Thank you Rebecca. Thank you Katie. So happy and excited to be here today. 

Katie: We are especially looking forward to this conversation as this is an area of great interest to our Stanford undergraduate students and we imagine students at many other schools as well. Also, not everyone is aware that deferred enrollment is an option for some masters of business administration programs, and we're really happy to be able to help spread the word.

Rebecca: Let's start off our conversation today with your story, Christine. Could you tell us a bit about your professional path, and what you do in your current position at the GSB? 

Christine: Sure thing. I have been working in higher education my entire professional career. And even more specifically, I've spent my career in graduate school admissions. So I got my start working with graduate nursing and education students. But have spent the vast majority of my time with our business school students. In recent years here at Stanford have been working with our deferred enrollment program, so we'll talk a little bit more about what that is, but Stanford GSB was one of the first schools to start offering this pathway to business school, and so I spent a lot of my time, raising awareness, educating people about this opportunity, explaining why it might be a great option for a lot of people regardless of what your academic background is or what career interests you may have. And then spending time with our students during their deferral and preparing them for the MBA experience when they choose to enroll.

Rebecca: Hmm. Wonderful. Thank you. 

Katie: Christine, can you give our listeners an idea of really what a deferred enrollment program is? Just start off at the basics, for us and our listeners today. 

Christine: Absolutely. So, as you may be aware, one graduate pathway after you finish undergrad is to pursue an MBA at a graduate business school. And for many, many years, the pathway was that there was an expectation that you would finish undergrad, work for a handful of years, and then apply to business school, whether you were ready to take the next step in your career, potentially pivot, and those things still happen when you pursue business school.

Christine: But something that Stanford started offering a number of years ago, and now actually quite a number of business schools are offering this pathway, this opportunity, allows college seniors and in many cases graduate students who have gone straight through to a master's program right after their undergrad, to actually apply to business school in your final year of study. So as a college senior, you would be getting ready to apply in your last year of university. And by doing so, you are able to potentially secure a spot in a future MBA class. And once you do that, you actually have the opportunity to go off and gain that full-time work experience and then put yourself in the driver's seat for deciding when you are ready to enroll. So many schools will give you some flexibility in terms of how many years you're able to defer. Stanford GSB, we give you up to four years. Some new programs now are giving even up to five years. And every year the schools will check in and say “How's it going? What are you up to? Do you want a little more time?” And so we'll engage in a conversation with you throughout those early stages of your career to help you identify when the right time might be to actually begin your MBA studies. 

Rebecca: I think that's really helpful for our students to know that there is that flexibility out there so they can take some time to explore in a professional space. But, if they need more time, that's an option. So who exactly should consider a deferred enrollment program for their MBA? 

Christine: I think a lot of different people should consider deferred enrollment as a potential pathway to business school. And I'll actually start with that phrase because I think sometimes the MBA runs into a challenge of a misrepresentation of what people might think the degree was certainly something that I thought of when I was an undergrad. When I heard the term “business school” or MBA, I thought this was a degree that only people who wanted to pursue careers in business or those traditional business settings needed or we're looking for. And having worked now in higher ed and in this space for so long, the business degree is actually so much more than that. It is really a graduate degree in leadership development, and you do get those hard skills in terms of being able to identify a lot of spaces like finance, accounting, operations, marketing. All of those things can be a part of the MBA experience. But there are also so many classes that really focus on this idea of personal leadership development. And that is something that you can apply in any industry, regardless of what you might be curious about doing in the future, whether it's in that traditional business sense, whether it's working in the nonprofit space, whether it's working in government, this is a degree that is actually incredibly versatile. One of the ways I really describe this to people is that most graduate programs that exist will actually narrow your scope of focus. You become an expert in this one thing. And an MBA is actually one program that's uniquely designed to actually expand your mindset. You can study a lot of different things and be surrounded by your peers in your class. People who have studied so many different things, not just the same thing you've studied, and who have done a lot of different things professionally and will go on to do a lot of different things. So it's a really unique academic ecosystem that I think is particularly unique to the business school experience.

Christine: So, to get back to your question: anyone with any academic background and any professional interest may consider applying to business school. And if you're thinking about it early enough, then you may be eligible to apply for deferred enrollment. 

Rebecca: That's really helpful. And I think a lot of students come into advising conversations about business  thinking there maybe is one particular academic major or a selection of majors that they should pursue, quote unquote, should. And part of our role is to help them think kind of more expansively about their interests. And what they possibly could do in undergrad and thinking about the ways that that might enrich a future classroom space where they're there with people from a lot of different academic backgrounds and experiences.

Christine: Absolutely, and you can also have multiple interests yourself. That's one of the really exciting elements of a business school experience is that if you have a lot of interest and you're not sure exactly how that might manifest in a career, you get to work alongside your faculty, your classmates, the career advisors, and figure out what that intersection might look like for you in terms of how you're able to engage in all the things that you're curious and interested in.

Katie: I love thinking about it in that expansive way. That's, great. 

Rebecca: Really helpful framework. Yeah. 

Katie: From the more practical standpoint, how does the admissions process work for these types of programs? So when would an interested student apply, maybe both in terms of where they are in their undergraduate studies and in which part of the year is the application for these deferred enrollment programs available for a student? 

Christine: Great question. So, if you are early in your academic experience, it's a little too early to apply, but it's never too early to research these schools, get more familiar with the different programs and start thinking about applying. But generally you'll be applying in your senior year.

Or if you're doing something like a co-term or you know, you're going straight into maybe a one year master's right after you, would be applying in that final year of study. My general advice is to take your time studying for either the GMAT or the GRE. In most cases, most business schools will accept either exam and there are no preferences. I will repeat that there are actually no preferences between a GMAT or GRE. We recommend taking the test where you feel like you're able to put your best foot forward. But take time to study and plan to take that sometime in your final year, maybe on the earlier side. And then in terms of actually when you would submit your application, Stanford is actually I think the only program that gives you total flexibility in that we have three application rounds and we accept applications for our deferred program in all three of our rounds. So, you can apply whenever you're ready in your senior year. Most of the newer deferred programs that exist now have a single springtime deadline, so it's usually in the April timeframe. That happens to align with our Round Three. So the way I tend to advise people is if Stanford GSB is your number one first choice, you can apply in any of those three rounds. But if you feel like you have time and you can apply in round one or round two, absolutely do that. If you're keeping your options open, you're interested in a lot of different programs and you'd like to get your admissions responses from all of the schools before making a decision, then I recommend people apply in Round Three for Stanford, which coincides with the deferred deadlines that exist for a lot of the other programs out there. 

Rebecca: Mm-hmm. Yeah, and I, I laughed a bit when you were emphasizing GMAT or GRE, because it was as though you anticipated that, that's a question we get a lot - “are there any preferences?” And, do you find, just in your experience with other programs, that that's pretty universal now in business school? 

Christine: Absolutely. When the GRE first was accepted at business schools, it was sort of a smaller percentage of students that were doing it. Now you're seeing more and more students really split between taking either test. The one piece of advice I’d add, so while we don't have a preference and we really do leave it to you to take the test where you think you'll be able to do your best, if any of you might be thinking about pursuing a joint degree, so you might wanna combine the MBA with maybe a Master's in Education or a Master's in Public Policy or the Environment and Resources Master's here at Stanford, for many of those programs, they may require the GRE. So if there's even just a glimmer in your eye or a notion that you might want to do that later, you may want to consider taking the GRE rather than the GMAT simply so you only have to take one test instead of two. 

Rebecca: And that generated a new question for me, which is, can people who apply deferred enrollment do joint degree programs at Stanford?

Christine: Yes. 

Rebecca: And so when do they submit the application for the other program they might be doing? 

Christine: So the short answer to that question, which we get all the time, is “It depends,” because the timing for when you would submit an application is completely dependent on what that other degree is. So, for example, like a JD/MBA would have a very different timeline. In that case, you're usually starting a law school application at some point during your deferral. Whereas something like an MPP, or the Environment and Resources, the Master's in Education, those are actually all programs you can apply for during your first year in the MBA. So you would actually wait until you've enrolled before you start that process. So we always invite people to talk to us one-on-one when they have questions if that's something they're interested in. 

Rebecca: Great. 

Katie: So that sparked another question. The cascading questions. If you're interested in a joint degree, so the JD/MBA as being one example, is there an order that should happen for those degrees? If you've been accepted to the MBA program through a deferred process, could you do another degree in the interim deferral period, or is that period really reserved for some kind of work in an industry or something like that? 

Christine: Excellent question and definitely one we get often. So, the primary hope is that our students will be going out and gaining full-time work experience during this deferral period. However, you do have up to four years. So we do have some students who choose to pursue a one year master's, pursue things like the Schwartzman Scholars Program in China. Some people pursue Fulbright for a year and then gain some work experience. And there are some rare cases still where people might work for a couple of years and then have the “aha” moment that they're interested in doing something like a JD/MBA. So they might work for a couple of years, then begin law school studies, before beginning business school. And a fun fact when it comes to JD/MBAs: traditionally students will begin at the law school and take either their first or first and second year there before beginning their MBA studies. Technically, you can actually start at business school first, but it is certainly not the path that most people choose to pursue. People tend to go heads down, really focused on that first year of law school and then do a combination of the two degrees to finish out.

Rebecca: Okay. What are the most important aspects of a deferred enrollment application? So we've talked about the standardized test scores, but what should a student early on in their college career think about in terms of how to prepare themselves for an MBA or specifically a deferred enrollment pathway?

Christine: Sure. The application to apply through deferred enrollment for us at Stanford is the same application you would be using if you were applying after working for a few years. And so we have the same admissions criteria for all of our candidates. The things that we are looking for at Stanford are things like how you think, how you lead, and how you see the world. And the way we learn about all of that are through things like your transcripts and your test scores. That will start to inform our understanding of how you think. But that's only a piece of it. So test scores and grades are only one component. It's not just your academic aptitude. Something else that's important to us as your academic attitude. So what's your approach towards learning? Where have you displayed your intellectual curiosity about the world? What electives did you explore? How did you get involved? Extracurricularly, there are a lot of different ways for you to demonstrate how you think, in that space. In terms of how you lead, this will sometimes look different for our college students applying versus somebody who maybe have been out in the workforce for a few years. But there can still be leadership potential, no matter where you are, at what stage of your life and your career. So when we are reading applications, they are always read in context. When we are reading applications from college seniors applying for deferred enrollment, we're not going to be comparing you to somebody with five or ten years of work experience. We're going to be looking at what you've done and how you've done it with the time that you've had so far. So, that leadership can show up in a lot of different ways.

It can show up through student leadership, through the clubs and organizations you may be stepping into leadership roles in. If you're involved in athletics it certainly shows up. You know, if you're involved with a team, and especially if you're taking on a captain role in that capacity. If you are a TA or work in research, sometimes that shows up in those spaces as well. Jobs you may have on campus and in internships, we may not see you leading teams of people at this stage in your career, but oftentimes you may have had the opportunity to lead projects or be responsible for deliverables during these internships. So it's helpful for us to learn about the impact that you've had in the times that you've been in these different spaces.

Christine: And so those are important. And then really the last big piece is how you see the world. And this is really everything else about you. So it's not just, again, that aptitude that you've displayed, but how you would be contributing to this community and the classroom. And so it's all of the different perspectives that you share from where you grew up, your lived experiences, what you've studied, what you've been pursuing so far professionally. And one of the exciting things for our deferred students is in terms of what you bring with that professional experience when you arrive on campus that's completely up to you, because you'll have this time in those early years of your career to really explore those interests that you have. And we'll probably get to it later in terms of talking about some of the benefits of their deferred enrollment pathway. But this is really a space for you to push yourself early in your career. Raise your hand for some of those bigger projects at work. You know, raise your hand for those leadership opportunities maybe earlier than you might have otherwise, because this is a chance for you to better understand yourself and your interests so you can be really focused when you come back to school and in terms of what you still want to learn and where you want to go next.

Rebecca: Thank you. And what are the most helpful letters of recommendation for people to have? Who should they be thinking about asking for those letters maybe both for the regular MBA pathway and then the deferred enrollment pathway, specifically, if there's a difference. 

Christine: Very good question, and there's actually not a difference. We actually give the same advice to everyone, but I think it, it warns repeating because if you are applying to PhD programs or other master's programs, oftentimes they actually require you to submit an academic letter of recommendation, one from a professor. And at business school we actually don't. So we actually recommend not asking a faculty recommender because what they tend to do is really tell us about how you did in the class, what your scores were on the final paper, on the final exam, and we don't really get to learn too much about you. So our general recommendation is to ask somebody who has supervised you in some way. So generally one of those is from a former supervisor from an internship. And for the second, we really leave it up to you. It could be another supervisor that you had at a different internship or somebody who maybe has supervised you in different capacities, whether it was through a community organization or elsewhere. On the faculty note, I feel like there's a little caveat because if it's just somebody you've sat in a classroom with. That tends to not be as helpful in terms of sharing examples and sharing stories about who you are as we're trying to get to know you. But if there was a faculty advisor for a club where you took on a leadership role or if there was a faculty advisor and you were involved with student government or maybe it's a coach or maybe it's somebody who was supervising you while you were working in a lab on campus. I think there are some exceptions to that guidance towards not asking a faculty member because there are circumstances where sometimes they may actually be a great recommender for you if it's somebody who really has seen you grow on campus, contribute to these communities, and made an impact during your time in those spaces.

Rebecca: Yeah. I'm thinking of, like, some of our students will take a class with somebody and it will go really well and they'll love the subject matter, and then they might be the TA for that person for a future class. Or help that person develop a seminar or something. 

Christine: Exactly. 

Rebecca: They might get to know somebody well, but it's often in multiple capacities as you said.

Christine: Exactly, yeah. And that is generally it. So it's, I sat in like, this was my favorite professor. I took three of their classes. They can mostly just comment on that I was a really engaged student. But like you said, if it's that next level of getting involved with research, TA, again faculty advisor of a student organization where you've had long-term involvement, suddenly they've gotten to know you in a whole different capacity.

Katie: While we're on the topic of the nuts and bolts of this application process with the standardized tests and letters and such, you mentioned that a specific area of academic interest isn't required and people from all sorts of different academic fields would be perfectly welcome and probably wonderful candidates for MBA programs, but I'm wondering if there are some course types that might be recommended either to explore the idea of a business degree down the line or maybe to develop a skill set that could be really helpful, like something in a quantitative space as one example. What do you think about academic preparation, generally speaking? 

Christine: For most business schools, we don't have specific class requirements, so there are not specific classes you need to take or boxes you need to check to qualify for admission to business school. However, all of us are looking at whether you have had any exposure to quantitative coursework during your time at school or during your professional experience. The reason we look for that is because there are some quantitative heavy coursework that you'll be doing, during your first year especially, in business school. And so, while not a requirement, it also doesn't hurt to have that exposure during undergrad. Many programs you naturally will. For many of the majors out there, there are some requirements, many liberal arts schools require some basic quantitative or or math coursework before you graduate. So many of you have likely had some exposure, even if it has not been deliberate. But things like microeconomics, statistics, calculus, again, not a requirement to do all three. But any of that exposure is helpful. And the reason for that is we'll be looking at how you've performed in those classes and looking at how you did on those quantitative sections of the exams to get a sense of how you might be able to perform in an MBA classroom. And ultimately, it is a rigorous program, especially here at Stanford, so we want to make sure the students who are joining us will thrive in the classroom, not struggle. And so again, not a requirement. If you are somebody that was a full liberal arts, full social sciences, English major, performing arts major, and down the road you really see that there could be a value in pursuing the MBA degree, you can always brush up on those skills before school starts. People take courses online. There are community college classes you can take. There are a lot of different ways that you can get that exposure to those different topics before you start your MBA studies.

Katie: Earlier, Christine, you shared that some programs allow up to four years of deferral. Some may allow five years of deferral. But, I'm curious to know if there's actually a minimum period of time that a student must have in between their most recent academic program and matriculation to business school? Can you tell us a little bit about expectations about the work experience? 

Christine: Yes. For most deferred MBA programs, they are expecting students to, to go out and gain at least two years of full-time work experience. Before joining the MBA program. So that's not hard and fast across all, all schools. Oftentimes it is individual specific. We've had some cases where students worked during their undergrad experience. Some people have done co-ops, some things like that. So two years isn't necessarily a firm rule for all programs. Sometimes these things will be decided on a case by case basis. But if you're fresh out of undergrad, you've never worked full-time outside of summer internships, most schools will recommend that you don't circle back to get started until you've had at least two years of full-time work experience. What I have seen since I've been doing this for a while is there was a time when these programs first started when people were coming at two years. Now we are seeing more and more people coming at three years and even more coming at four years. People really recognizing that they have this sort of gift of time when they know they've got a seat at Stanford waiting for them.

Christine: So if after two years at one job they go, okay. That was interesting. I learned a lot. I. Let me try something new before I go back to school. So some people will advance within an industry they're already in. Other people will take this opportunity to pivot into different spaces. , Some people will use this opportunity to pivot and work abroad for a period of time before they come back to go to school. So I generally encourage our students to start on the early end. You know, start with asking for two years or three years and know that you have the flexibility to push out up to four years. We do cap you at the four years. So at that point, if life has taken you in directions, you just never thought possible and you find yourself at that crossroads and you're not sure if that is the right time for business school, we don't allow further extensions beyond that time, but we are very reapplicant friendly. So whether you're not admitted the first go around, or if you ultimately are admitted, make it through those four years and then decide it's just not the right time, we always welcome you to reapply when the timing might be better for you. 

Rebecca: And I think that's a really important thing for any applicant to consider. Business school will be there. So even if you decide applying deferred enrollment isn't the right path for you because you are not ready to make that commitment to one program and you kind of wanna see where life takes you first, you can apply in the regular round. There's no must for this. 

Christine: Absolutely. 

Rebecca: Yeah. 

Christine: But if this audience is primarily college seniors or college students, I will say whether you decide to pursue deferred enrollment or not, one gift you could give to yourself is to sit for one of those standardized tests in your senior year, because those scores are good for five years. So, whether you apply to further enrollment or not, if you decide to wait for a few years into your career. Taking that test and getting that out of the way now: one, there have actually been studies that students actually perform a little better on those exams than people who have had to relearn some of those concepts and study while they're working full time. And it just gives you that optionality to apply now or later. 

Rebecca: And if a student applies and they're not accepted to deferred enrollment, are there things they should do before applying to MBA programs through the traditional channels?

Christine: Really just keep living your life, pursuing the things that are of interest to you. The reality is these are selective programs and because these programs are small and there are only so many seats, oftentimes there's not necessarily something that was missing in an application. Just simply that some difficult decisions had to be made. So that's why we are very encouraging for people to consider reapplying. There are many success stories, both from deferred applicants who have reapplied and people who have applied for direct enrollment, not received admission on the first go round, but did so later on. Many success stories across many business schools. So we always encourage people, especially if you feel like you've found a school that's right for you, and maybe that just wasn't the right time.

Katie: Christine, i'm wondering if you might have any little known or unknown aspects of professional programs or preparing for a professional school that could be helpful to share with our listeners to help uncover part of the hidden curriculum, either for deferred enrollment for MBA programs, MBA programs in general, or anything else related to this space.

Christine: I had a few ideas. So, first is specific to Stanford. Something that hopefully our undergrads are aware of, but if not, they should be. Whether you're applying to the Stanford MBA program or any of the incredible graduate programs here at Stanford, I hope people are familiar or take the time to get familiar with our Knight Hennessy Scholars Program.

It's an incredible interdisciplinary opportunity for graduate students here at Stanford to engage with one another intellectually. It also doesn't hurt that they cover up to three years of full funding for graduate studies here at Stanford. And our deferred candidates are eligible. So while you would apply for deferred enrollment during your senior year, you would actually still be eligible to apply for the Knight Hennessy Scholars Program the year you'd be matriculating with us. And so I always encourage all of our incoming deferred students if this is something they're interested in, to definitely remember and keep an eye out on that deadline, because it's an incredible opportunity for business school students and truly all graduate students here at Stanford.

Christine: For MBA in general, I think I mentioned this at the top of the program that business school isn't just for people who want to work in business, and I think Stanford, GSB in particular really stands behind each and every one of our students. And our hope that all of you will go off and pursue what it is you really want to do. And we stand by that in a few ways. And so we have a social impact loan forgiveness program. So if you ultimately decide that your heart is working in government or nonprofit, or you know, that social space, we have a loan forgiveness program. So the hope is that that will not hold you back. That you can make your professional choices and career choices based on what it is you want to do and where you feel like you can really make the most positive impact in the world. Not simply focused on how am I gonna pay back all those student loans because the school has got your back on that. The other is that we have a Stanford Impact Founders Fellowship. So most people think about fellowships when they're applying to school, and that's funding to help you cover the cost of school. Stanford GSB actually has fellowships that students can apply for as they're preparing to graduate that can actually help them fund some of their ideas on the way out of school. So this is specific to the social sector. So there's social entrepreneurship, there's ecopreneurship now, partnership with the School of Sustainability here at Stanford. But we really do encourage our students to dive into what it is they're most interested in, find ways to make those things happen and lean on your support network here at Stanford, their career advisors, your faculty, or your fellow classmates. The alumni. All of us are really rooting for everyone to go off and find success and define that success for themselves. Whatever sector that might be in. 

Rebecca: And that's making me think too that some companies might help fund somebody's MBA. 

Christine: Yes. 

Rebecca: And so I'm wondering if you find that to be the case with some of the students that arrive at the MBA program that they might be intending to return to the company they were working at, because that company might be helping to fund the MBA.

Christine: Indeed, there are still some industries out there that will fund their staff members to actually go and pursue business school usually with the agreement that you would be returning to that company for two or sometimes three years, right, as sort of a repayment, because they are investing in you to then invest back in that company in terms of the knowledge that you'll be bringing back. And we do see a number of students who choose to do that. We have also seen students who have come in planning to be sponsored and then ultimately deciding to do something different. You can talk to financial aid. Do you talk to your former, you know, employer in terms of what that looks like at that stage. But, we've seen students pursue all of those paths and sort of everything in between. Some students come in and walk a straight line, have a clear goal and walk out doing that thing. Some people walk in with a clear goal, try a lot of different things. Sometimes they end up in a different space. Some people walk in with no idea or vague ideas of what they might do, and then find their way throughout the two year experience. 

Rebecca: And if you're thinking back to your framework of business school as an opportunity to really expand your horizons, it makes sense that folks might be doing just that, having their horizons expanded and pivoting or trying something different, or wanting to try something new after they graduate from business school.

Christine: Exactly.

Rebecca: If they are interested in learning more, what are the best channels for doing that? Is it information sessions? Is it visiting business, school campuses? What do you think? 

Christine: There are so many ways to learn more about different MBA programs. Many will be hosting information sessions both in person and online. Many schools will have student ambassadors, so if you just look up the name of the school and student ambassadors, oftentimes there are websites and you can reach out directly to students to learn more about these different programs. And oftentimes we will hit the road doing various fairs or panels. Any chance you can, can take to just learn a little bit more about a program. Especially if it's early and you've got the time, reach out, ask questions, learn what you can, and then hopefully, we'll see your application sometime down the road.

Rebecca: Well Christine, thank you so much. We have really enjoyed speaking with you. It's so helpful to hear your perspective. And we think this will be wonderful for our students to get a sense of whether or not they wanna consider deferred enrollment MBA programs or an MBA. In and of itself

Christine: Perfect. Thank you so much. 

Katie: I've learned a tremendous amount today, so I really appreciate your time, Christine, Thank you so much. 

Christine: Thank you so much for having me.